Author Topic: The Rage  (Read 7869 times)

(un)seen

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The Rage
« on: July 29, 2007, 03:49:53 PM »
 8)

Hello!

I am new at this forum. I have (at least) one question to ask. Do you believe in forgiveness? I don't.
Voicelessness occur when the child that once was, or still is, didn't  or isn't allowed to freely discover it's own voice. I believe that in most cases this is a concequence of the parents ability, or so to speak, the parents own neclected voice. I find this according to what I have understood reading The 3 rules of parenting, which I loved.

i believe I wasn't seen, nor was given the chance to find my own voice as a child. And of course I am still struggling to find it.
To put it more accurate; I don't believe in forgiving my own parents. Instead I believe in feeling the rage against them for what they did.

To feel the rage is a difficult thing to do. To know that I was not seen may be intellectually understood by myself, but is hard to feel.
i feel strongly for Alice Millers way of seeing it. As I child I had to believe that my parents loved me, just to survive. But, now as an adult I have the choice to see what they really did, and why that was no good.

If I got what I needed from them I wouldn't have any reasons for not being content and  live my life to its potential, by simply living and loving.

Maybe it is possible to forgive, but not before I have fully felt the rage for what my parents did to me.

I know that in the radical unschooling movement for instance, several people believe in the radical forgiveness term. I can't see that as possible and still get full health in every way.

I hope you understand my poor language.


the once
(un)seen


P.S maybe this is the wrong place; have you read The Body Never Lies, by Alice Miller?

spyralle

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 04:07:37 PM »
Hi Unseen,

Nice to meet you.  I'm with Bean on hearing a synopisis of 'the body never lies' I have read a couple of Alice Miller also.  For me, I try to show compassion as I believe that narcissists are almost prisoners of themselves..  They just don't get it..  and so in that respect I feel sorry for them as they miss out on so much true emotion..  The anger i have is inside me.  I can feel it and it leaks out occasionally.  I'd like to go to a room somewhere safe and smash it to smitherines but don't think they exist so I try to eke it out in other ways.. writing etc..

Keep posting

Spyralle x

motheroffour

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 05:41:13 PM »
Unseen,

A special welcome to you from someone who is very familiar with rage against the parents! I have had so much anger that I started to turn it onto myself.  Yuck!  I don't do that anymore. Well, OK, I try not to do that anymore.  :)  But I have worked hard to understand why I am so angry and what to do with all of it.  My T tells me to listen to its message and try to learn what it is telling me.  Perhaps I need a boundary.  Perhaps I need a shoulder to cry on.  Perhaps I need to leave the relationship and try for a better one somewhere else.  Maybe I just need someone to recognize the injustice and the pain from the abuse. And maybe I am that person.

 So much of my anger came because no one saw me or heard me or acknowledged the violence that was happening against my spirit.   And it seems in many cases my anger is telling me valuable information about what to do next to make myself safer.

Another thing that gets in my way is the pressure I put on myself NOT to feel the rage....telling myself it is wrong to be so angry. Or pressuring myself to let it go!

What does help is validation.  When someone else hears the heart cry and offers a hug.  When someone sees the injustice and helps me say so or SHOUT so.  When someone tells me that it wasn't my fault (when I can believe them) or helps me take responsibility for my healing,  the anger seems to calm.  I don't always have another person who hears me completely.  So, I am learning to be my own best friend and advocate and listen to what my rage is trying to say.   I never thought my anger would end.   And then one day I didn't feel it so much.  And now my rage level, although still there, is somewhat quieted.  The more I love myself and care for myself the way my parents didn't and the way I wish they and others would, the better I feel. 

I actually do believe in forgiveness.  In the past, I have put so much pressure on myself to forgive.  But it always made me feel like these people were "getting off easy" or "getting away with it".  I wanted them to KNOW what they did and how badly it hurt me!  Now, I feel so different about forgiveness as I understand more of what it is and what it isn't.  And the more I work thru my anger, the better I feel.  And now, after a lot of work,  I am starting to feel the capacity to forgive.  It is coming to me gently. A little bit at a time. Don't really even have to work that hard at getting to it like before.    And it feels really good.  I think I love my mother more that ever.  And she will never be the mother I needed or hoped for.  And will never ever admit to what happened so long ago.  Somehow, I don't know why or how exactly, but that seems ok to me.

 I hope you feel listened to.  What you went thru must have been awful!  And I am so sorry.  We  people who were made to be invisable!  Well, we are not invisable now!  Welcome to the board.  I hope you find solace and comfort and friends here. 

Much love,
mof4

lighter

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 05:44:12 PM »
Welcome Unseen:

I think you have every right, indeed,  obligation to feel and express all that pent up rage.

You're entitled to it.

Rant, scream, rage and wail like a wounded animal.....  (the showers a pretty good place to do that)

::nodding::

but then remember.....

your parents were doing the best they could. (sad and sick as it was)

They couldn't do any better,  or they would have.

Broken beyond repair, they are.

They may have experienced abuse as children themselves.  

I think it's likely.

We often judge our parents, and seldom forgive.  

The problem with that is.... not forgiving them is a prison we create for ourselves.

We forgive for ourselves....  not for them.

You don't even have to tell them you forgive them.  

It's for you.  

Their involvment isn't necessary.

So go ahead and rage.... we'll rage with you.  

But don't forget that when it's all said and done..... your responsibility is to move beyond all the hurt..... experience life to it's fullest.  

To teach your children how to do it, if you have children.

Not live in a world haunted by the ghosts of your traumatic childhood: /

Not live to rage and hold grudges.  

We are human and some of that is a moral imperative but..... do it once.... well.... then let it go so you can embrace better things.  

If you can.  


(un)seen

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 06:51:47 PM »
Thank you so much for your responses.

I have written two long answers including a synopsis from Alice Miller's: The Body Never Lies. And I did not succeed getting any of them through.

But, complements for your answers, I strongly believe that rage is of the most important matter in getting healthy.

Now, I will try and see if I succeed with this one.

 :shock:

the once
(un)seen

(un)seen

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 06:57:20 PM »
Hello again,

I'll make them short now. (I must be very clumsy or something, oh well, the message will get through somehow)

Here is the link to Alice Miller's site: http://www.alice-miller.com

you can find readers mail and a faq list: how to find the right therapist there.

Best of wishes

the once
(un)seen

Ami

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 07:28:37 PM »
Dear the once unseen,
  I love Alice Miller. I read" The Body never Lies". It is really, really powerful. I think that Alice Miller is wonderful.
  I am healing at a very deep level. As I face the truth about my life, my body is letting go of pain and I am seeing insights about why I took on the pain.
   . When I see a new insight, I feel like I am going to pass out. I never before went through this type of a healing. I have had many,many 'head" type of healing. However, I am having a 'heart" healing,now.
   I think that the most important thing to healing is facing the truth. I did not go to therapy. I have been many,many times before and only experienced head' healing .I forced myself to keep facing the gut level truth about myself. Gradually, I am healing b/c of this.
   Keep writing and sharing.                                             Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

WRITE

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2007, 09:55:29 PM »
I looked at Alice Miller's website, her paintings are interesting.

I wouldn't be too interested in giving up on forgiveness wholesale though, since my religion is Christianity.

oh well, the message will get through somehow

I have problems posting too sometimes  :(

One thing I feel is these are models of psychology. Some of the psychologists act as though there are simple solutions to a complex problem. What is abuse in one society at one time isn't in others; and trying to bring people's thoughts together on how children should be raised and what is best for them isn't as easy as one person saying people are violent because of abuse in childhood, though it is of course a factor.

People are also violent ( or unpleasant or difficult or whatever ) because of the choices they make based upon their beliefs and values and what extent they are prepared to rein in their own impulses and desires and anger and give way to others.

Alice Miller is a useful piece of our toolbox in a way but it wouldn't help me ( or be good for those around me ) with my bipolar one disorder to follow her methods or give vent to my rage !

~W

Hopalong

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 12:32:13 AM »
Haven't read her in depth (or at all recently), but I am a little spooked by Miller.
No idea what that means, but ...

I am a chicken.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

(un)seen

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 05:10:50 AM »
Dear all

here are my beliefs:

I believe that all children are born innocent. I don't believe in sin. I even believe that my parents were born innocent and the grandparents before them. But because of what Miller explains as societal mechanisms like for instance the fourth commandment - Honour thy father and thy mother, there is no room for the children to keep their voices. My mother and father were not allowed to use or even find their voice, so they had to look for it elsewhere, to confirm themselves as humanbeings. This is all in most ways unconscious mechanisms. They were looking for their voice through me (if they were able to look for it), and they haven't found it yet.
Of course, if my parents were treated with respect and love they would never be able to pass on anything but respect and love.
The problem is, my parents never really found their true anger of being treated the wrong way. They in many ways idealize their own parents, at least emotionally. So their rage is leaking to me and themselves in disguises, and that is what is called love.

So I had no choice, to survive as a child I had to see my parents as being the only thruth. As a result I had so many faults, and got depressed.

My mother was severly depressed for the first five years of my life. She was not able to see me nor take proper care of me. I remember almost nothing from the first five years.

If I deserve love and did not get it, I believe it is natural to feel angry because I did not get what I should have gotten.
It is difficult to see (and most important FEEL) my true story, maybe I will need an enlightened witness to do so, in form of a therapist. I have big problems in feeling rage or anger. Instead I feel a whole lot of other things, like unworthy and such, that keeps me from loving and living.

So I think maybe this is scaring and maybe this is not according to the ordinary christian 
belief, everybody must find their way and listen to their own feelings. It is no use in scaring people, so I apologize if that is what I am doing with this message of mine.

Take care

the once

(un)seen

Ami

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 09:55:05 AM »
Dear (previously) Unseen,
  Your role on this board is to find your voice. It is unique and special. Your role is not to be afraid of scaring people(IMO)
  I think that that must be an old perception from your childhood.
  If someone else does not like Alice Miller (or anything else) that is not "your problem".I believe in alternative medicine. Many people don't agree with that. Sometimes people can get angry. That is not my problem. My problem is to find my voice, own my voice , strengthen my voice and live with this new integrity--- That is it.
 There are so many people on the board. There are so many different voices. Many do not like someone who is different.However, I think that you want to find the unique you--- not to be one of the crowd .That is an opportunity for growth.
  Unseen, Please keep sharing. You have important things to give and to receive               Love  Ami
 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2007, 10:08:45 AM »
Hello, the once
(un)seen,

Welcome... and thank you for this:

Quote:  "My mother and father were not allowed to use or even find their voice, so they had to look for it elsewhere, to confirm themselves as humanbeings. This is all in most ways unconscious mechanisms. They were looking for their voice through me (if they were able to look for it), and they haven't found it yet.
Of course, if my parents were treated with respect and love they would never be able to pass on anything but respect and love.
The problem is, my parents never really found their true anger of being treated the wrong way. They in many ways idealize their own parents, at least emotionally. So their rage is leaking to me and themselves in disguises, and that is what is called love.

So I had no choice, to survive as a child I had to see my parents as being the only thruth. As a result I had so many faults, and got depressed."


The way you have expressed this is what I know to be true about my parents. Thank you for framing it in these words so that I could understand. Leaking rage in disguise... yes, that is it.

I am unfamiliar with Alice Miller.. and I am Christian. To explain my views - my understanding is that anger is not a sin... it's what we do with that anger which can result in sin. "In your anger, sin not."  There is righteous anger, in my opinion. It is when that anger grows roots of bitterness and becomes a lust for revenge that it becomes sinful.

Again, welcome to the board. I hope you will continue posting and sharing!

With love,
Hope

CB123

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 10:09:26 AM »
Unseen,

Welcome!  And no apologies necessary.

I'm not crazy about Alice Miller, but I know that her writing has really spoken to many posters here.  I think you will find many people to bounce ideas off of and help you think through your circumstances using her perspective.

I am interested in the radical forgiveness idea that you said was associated with unschooling.  Can you elaborate?

CB



When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

(un)seen

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Radical Forgiveness
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2007, 12:31:37 PM »
 :lol:

I was taken by surprise when the question came up about Radical Forgiveness.

Here is a link:

http://www.radicalforgiveness.com






(un) seen

Hopalong

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Re: The Rage
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2007, 12:41:06 PM »
Hi Unseen,

Goodness, I'm glad you're here and happy you're posting about Alice Miller and anything else at all! Seriously.

You don't need to worry about me feeling a little spooked about Miller at all. That's ME and some READING.

No worries at all. You keep right on. I'll learn from reading you and other posters who do know Miller's work well. I'm very glad to do so!

I was just commenting, remarking, that's all dear. You're not responsible for me having a reaction to some writing, you know?

((((((((((((((Un))))))))))))))))

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."