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Hi Tup,

I'm so sorry to hear about all that you're going through. I really get what you're saying about the need for healthy 3D relationships. The Internet has been a blessing for me because it's made places like this board available, and the online support has helped me immeasurably. But there's still no substitute for a real person to hold your hand, or hug you, or just be there for you.

Like you, I've also struggled with healthy friendships. Is that something that affects all children of N-Mothers? Interesting that this comes up in a thread about self-worth, because I think that's been a huge road block for me in finding true friendship. I'm similar to you in that I wait for friends to come to me, rather than proactively seeking them out, and I do believe that's because I've never had any self-worth. I grew up being told that no one liked me, so I've always felt unworthy of friendship. I've always had friends at the office, but whenever I changed jobs, those friendships fell by the wayside. No lifelong best friends.

I don't know how to fix that, not just me, but you, or anyone who was raised by an N-mother and lacks the self-esteem, and probably the social skills, to get out there and meet people who really like you for being YOU. I think that, as daughters of Ns, we've been taught to settle. We aren't worthy, so if someone shows an interest, we should be grateful and just take it, whether it be a romantic interest or a friendship. I've definitely settled for whatever came along in the men department, and have probably done that with friends as well. Then it ends up like you describe, with the "friend" going on about themselves, and tacking on a "Hope you're okay" at the end, when what we really need is a freaking hug.

I don't mean to turn this into a post about me. I'm saying this because I do think it's something we all struggle with. Maybe I'm wrong. For the people posting in this group, do any of you have really meaningful friendships in which you really feel loved and cared about? Or are we all doomed to having good relationships with only our therapists, who are, in a sense, paid friends. I'm babbling, but also having a day where I'm feeling so terribly alone, and when I feel alone, I come here.

Anyway, Tup, I wish I could give you a hug right now. Bad enough to get this news about your son, but knowing what you've been through with your NM, I sure hope that there's no interference from her. It sounds like so far so good, so hoping that's the case. The support group sounds encouraging, even if it's small. Actually, small might be better and allow you to bond with the others.

Okay, I'm probably not even making sense at this point. Sending all my best from across the pond. Well, why didn't they give us a heart smiley? Old fashioned one ... <3
And breath :)

Okay, firstly, sorry for freaking out completely and secondly thank you for your lovely replies, and for being there, and for not minding me freaking out :)

I have calmed down now; I'm still tearful and veering between angry, hopeful, devastated and dancing round the kitchen but I'm alright and don't have the awful 'lead in the limbs and no control of my thoughts' feeling that I had over the weekend.

It did make me realise that my 'breakdown' thirteen or so years ago was really just about everything being too much rather than being mentally ill.  I don't know why that matters to me but it did make me feel better, for some reason?

I also realised that I took that terrible news to people who have a tendency to not be too interested in what I do.  Why did I do that?  It's like I want to keep hurting myself.

So - practical head on (because that's how I cope - at least some of the time!).

Although it's looking highly likely that he has this condition it's not confirmed yet so still a chance there's been a mix up.

If he does have it there are people who do okay on meds so it might not be a complete disaster.

I am upset that our plans for college are on hold now (I don't feel I want to do anything about that until all these tests have been done as the outcome of these might change the sort of college he goes to as his medical needs might be higher).  But it's on hold rather than cancelled so will still happen at some point.

It is looking possible for us to get subsidised housing which will help a lot.  I don't know what the housing situation is in the States but over here housing in this part of the country is ridiculously expensive and very difficult to rent when you aren't employed.  Local authority housing is much cheaper, better maintained and you don't have the same barriers if you're not working so we might get lucky, which would be good.

We're attending two different hospitals and neither one is being very helpful at the moment.  Their letters don't mirror the things they've told me and I seem to be constantly chasing people up, which is very stressful and time consuming.  I am going to get some advice on what actually needs to happen next as they seem to be working to two different goals, and then sort out who is doing what and get it all confirmed in writing.

There is a support group; it's very small because the condition is so unusual!  But they have a Facebook group so I have spoken to some of them online and will put together a list of questions that I'm trying to get my head around.

I am beyond exhausted - I have just had too much to cope with for too long now.  So I'm waiting to hear back from the hospital as to whether my son has any tests over the next few weeks and if he doesn't I'm going to ask that lady if we can borrow her holiday home and go away for a fortnight.  I'm miserable in this house and the only way I can take my mind off it is to keep myself constantly busy, which is why I feel so tired all the time.  So if we can get away for a bit we will.

I am very, very supportive of my online friends and really do appreciate you being here.  But I really, really need some good people in 3D as well.  I've been alone for so long, and so very alone for so long.  I really want that to change.  I have made a plan of things to do this week that involve some group/community activities, and we're going to the cafe I mentioned where the nice lady works.  I'm seeing a good 3D friend on Wednesday and hoping to meet up with another one nearer the end of the week.  Trying to balance being busy with not wearing myself out.

Thank you very, very much for being there.  I'm okay again now.  Scared me a bit but I'm okay and will post more news when I have it and when I don't feel so shattered!  Thank you xxxx
How are you doing this morning, Tupp?


I'm sorry there's no 3 D support in your life.  It's coming.  Like Hops said.... the social workers can set you up with support groups, and there will be new people in your life after the move.

It's OK to fall down.... everyone does.  Don't beat yourself up.  Stay down as long as you need and can, and don't regret.  Just rest, and restore yourself. 

Maybe ask the doc for a low dose of lorazepam or something you can take a tiny corner of to feel level when the anxiety starts rolling over you. 

 You've made it this far bc you're brave, and capable, and resilient enough to keep getting back up after every setback, sabotage, and curve ball.  You're a mom, and you're going to do what;s best for your cub.

You have us.... please remember that this community is a safe place to  find understanding, support and feedback.....  we're here for you, (((Tupp.)))

::Sending strength, courage and a big'ol cyber hug::

Tupp, Tupp Tupp...

Screw advice. I'm just thinking about you a lot,
cuppas on a tray -- bringing you a nice warm cloth for your worn-out eyes.

Little back-pats between your shoulders, maybe I'll go get a posey.
Scent of flowers. Some peaceful music that sings of big love and big beauty...

Hallo to your boy, see what I can fetch him... Soup?

My heart was wrung to read about your day, hope you know
people are passing the day with you, even unseen.

You are going to be okay.
One day, one step, one moment at a time.

Sometimes that's just all you can do and it's enough.

Hang in,

BTW, my new laptop is not working.  The old computer I'm  using now is cranky and cuts off the Internet without warning.   :(
Oh, ((((((((((Tupp)))))))))))).
I am so sorry.

I really do understand how others' self-absorption or inability to express caring in a way that really reaches your heart, and comforts...can be devastating.

When you're already feeling so alone, frightened for your boy, and under great great stress.

Here, dear. Tea, a hug, and a tissue. It's okay to fall down for a while and no, you don't have to lose your mind to all this. You are so much stronger than you know.

I am so hoping the flat-near-hosp-in-nice-area works out. Another thing to consider--in most hospitals I'm familiar with (worked in one for a time), there are all sorts of support groups. People with ill children are so hugely in need of others who understand, who've felt the pain and fear of that vulnerability.

Just sitting in a circle with others who Know This Fear--could make such an enormous difference for you. Ask a social worker at the hospital...please do. And follow through.

You deserve support. Period.

And if it can't come from your acquaintances, your long-term social circle, it's going to come from people you've never laid eyes on before--some of whom will absolutely amaze you with their understanding and compassion.

Consider this...though the power and meaning of 3-D connection is more important, and always will've never laid eyes on any of us.

And you know we love you.

(I'd suggest tossing those herbal things, you never know what's really IN them unless they're stringently regulated and not imported from god-knows-what growers in Asia. "Made" in a country doesn't mean GROWN there, alas. I hope you find that crying, as much as you need to, talking with some nonjudgmental person who GETS what's needed--even a pastor if you believe, or a community person who works with folks who face the kinds of challenges you walk through--I hope you find that knitting together all of those things, and not depending on a fantasy of coping alone...will help you through.)

Comfort and just hang in. Meditate if you can, Tupp. Even 15 minutes twice a day. It'll help you remember your connection to something big and beautiful that noone can take away.

The small stuff doesn't matter. In the big picture of life, there is ALWAYS room for you just as you are. And your boy.

love to you,
Today has been horrific; the sort of day that, fifteen years ago, would have had me ringing the doctor asking to be admitted to the psych ward.  I had virtually no control over my mind; my anxiety was so high that I literally couldn't pin a thought down and be rational about anything.  I ended up taking both herbal pills and betablockers that were left in the cupboard from an old prescription and washed it down with booze.  I haven't done anything like that for years and don't want to be in a position to do it again but today was a bit of an emergency and the doctor's surgery was full so it seemed like the only option.

It did calm me down enough to start gathering my thoughts again.  The situation with my son isn't looking good.  If he does have this disorder that the blood tests are currently indicating then it can be fatal, and/or leave him severely disabled.  There are 'good' cases so he might be one of those but there's absolutely no way of knowing and I am so tired of having to be brave, strong and carrying on.  I literally, physically collapsed today and there's literally no-one I can call to come and pick me up.  I just lay there until I felt I could move again.  It's been a terrible day.

There may be a possibility that we can get a flat fairly near the hospital in an area that's quite nice so if that happens it will help, even just as a temporary move.  Will hopefully know more about that in the next couple of weeks.  But the reactions of people who know us - several haven't stopped talking for long enough for me to speak, someone else responded today by saying "oh shit" by text and nothing more and when I told my sister she said "oh my God" and then started talking about her dog.  I don't expect anyone to leap in and magically find a cure but I really, really needed to hear someone respond to it and take it - and my fear - seriously and just acknowledge the potential severity of the situation.  I'm absolutely terrified.

Anyway - I'm in bed.  I've not been sleeping so no doubt will be awake again in the small hours.  I'm just hoping my brain will have leveled out a bit in the morning because I'm really not functioning well at all at the minute.

Thank you for letting me waffle on, I do appreciate it.
I do need to stop thinking/pondering on the people who haven't been there for me and focus on those who have....

Quote see what's in front of me and not keep dwelling on people who aren't interested!

You got it. And what you said about fear of being rejected and feeling awkward in making overtures to people...I think it all goes together with the quotes from you above. When I feel that rejection-vulnerability I often find my critical/judgemental voice kick in. I think when I have racing thoughts about how some other person (regardless of label, "friend" or not) hasn't responded BECAUSE THEY ARE [insert critical label, from self-absorbed to N-ish if I feel really hurt, to boring, to blah and blah...]. Doesn't mean sometimes I'm never accurate or perceptive in identifying negatives about that individual, but I'm talking about the extra energy I give to that round of self-talk.

(Which I just pretend to myself is other-talk, in my head. "Don't you see, why haven't you, you must, you should, a Real Friend would...")

I think it's just social vulnerability, and my judgmental inner editor is a comfort zone. Lonely one.

Maybe you're prone to that too?

I do waaaay better when I can stop "grading" others on the various ways they've disappointed me (sure enough you can find that anywhere you go/live/move) and focus on loving and valuing myself. Not "in defiance of those inadequate/disappointing other people" but just's happier. It's the healthy place to be.

As I get happier with myself, less neglectful of myself, more engaged in my own life...then I'm less dependent on approval, interest or comfort from others. I'm still human and very very aware how much I need community...but I find I am less and less confident that a stalwart web of intimate and totally loyal friends is just going to stably exist because I want it to. I think life is a lot more fragile than that.

For me, the cure is...GROUP. Community. Not fixating on individual people or individual interactions (or the lack thereof). When I let myself participate in something larger, even if it's a group meeting or an "interest group" I am happier. (Then the positive discoveries with individuals, which certainly do happen, are still wonderful...but I don't weight them down with massive expectations/rules/rigidities/fix-my-sad-life stuff.)

I still get stuck in my mind-circles at times, but we don't gotta LIVE there.

I think you're doing fabulously and urge you not to ever dump that wonderful T. Hope you'll just make it an "interval" without therapy, not a change of your new life navigation.

(Last thought: the verbs in your quotes that twanged for me are: thinking, pondering, and dwelling. Add 'em up and you've got rumination -- a major signal of depression.) So often, people don't recognize that actual thoughts, especially articulate and rationally-narrated thoughts, can be symptoms in themselves.) Lest you think I do not do this, I will sign off as:

Regent of Rumination

I think what I struggle with (amongst other things) is people taking up my time and there being nothing in it for me?  And that sounds very selfish and mercenary, I know, but just this morning (which is funny given that my 'getting out of here and making new friends' thing is at the front of my mind) someone texted, asked me how I was and when I responded that I'm really struggling and really worried about my son they replied that they have two weeks holiday now and they're really excited about it.  Why ask if you don't want to acknowledge the response?  Then phoned a friend and after fifty minutes of her talking about all her problems realised I wasn't going to get a word in so ended the call.  Then a text from someone else with a long explanation of her entire week that ends with 'Hope you're both okay' - she knows we're not but doesn't even want to end the text with a question in case she gets an honest response.  I feel like none of those interactions was worth the time?

My head is all over the place at the mo and you're right Hopsie, I am depressed, but equally I don't know what to do about it?  Moving will help, I think, but the house I was interested in won't rent to me because I'm not working and at the moment there's nothing else available in that area.  We can move out of the area but if we do that we won't be able to carry on seeing the same doctors and will have to start the medical process all over again.  Anti-depressants help short term but then the side effects seem to affect me very strongly so I can't take them long term and I'm still in the same situation again.  I'm taking as much herbal/self help stuff as I can but it's not cutting it and I can feel myself sinking further and further in.

Group/community get togethers interest me a lot and are something I want to do more of but I still feel this enormous space where I feel I want close, supportive relationships, along side the community stuff I suppose?  I feel so stuck, it's like being in quick sand, the more I struggle the further I sink in some ways.
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