Personally, I'm not getting too esoteric about it- I think I have graduated beyond spirituality to reality and I don't ever want to do social work...I just can't see the value in this "life experience"...for me it's just more lost time down the drain that I could have been using to actually live. I'm just trying to think about practical things like making sure I don't get sick, don't get a Staph infection. One woman came out of jail with an UNTREATED Staph. infection on her foot and then proceeded to doctor it up in the kitchen area of the shelter. Another woman just got out of the hospital for some bacterial infection that she is saying: "At least it's not MRSA"...and during a conversation she mentioned that she also has drug abuse issues.

I have heard my Nar-mother use the term “Low-lifes” to describe unfortunate people - and when she uses that term, I now know that all of the people in the homeless shelter come under that category- even me probably. My Nar-mother sends me emails describing to me what she is going to cook for dinner-- as if that is somehow of significance to me? I think my mother has a bona-fide mental problem that doesn't have an odoriferous stink and it isn't going to put her in jail....and it isn't going to make her homeless. There doesn't seem to be tangible evidence of her dark side and somehow the people around her over look her weird tantrums. My mother has a swinging mood she goes from the incident where she is saying to me "You're a miserable person" while my alcoholic brother is yelling at me.....to sending me emails now about her culinary preparations at home. I'm literally eating at a soup kitchen. It's not appropriate- she just shouldn't talk to me about what she is cooking for dinner. I use to respond to this emotionally but now I think I'm just seeing the patterns.    

One of the women just out of jail says that the other women in the jail were putting heroin up their rear-ends…..She is a mother. Most of the women in the shelter are mothers. There is something about her that I like. I want her to do well. She is not very attractive- she is "trashy" like most of the people there- but there is something that just seems more real about some of these people in a way. Not a lot of pretense of social class. Not a whole lot of arrogance not a lot of hair-flipping and flaunting. Many of these women have children that end up having health complications- diseases, one was born a preemie, others have other problems. The children of these women in this shelter didn't exactly come into this world with a head-start in life.

You, know, society doesn't want to see these people become "successful". There seems to be a force that is directed towards punishing these people and judging these people and condescendingly disliking these "types" of people. There are a lot of stigmas in this place. In fact the word stigmatized might be invisibly hovering over the homeless shelter. For some people it really seems to be a lifestyle. I'm getting tired and bored of the people there. I want to go fishing--do something-- get out and AWAY. Building a castle out of dog poop? Ok, that is just negativity there.

Losing my job, having difficulty with being picked for rehire along with a bought of depression after I lost my job, reopening of old emotional issues, my lack of skill in leveraging myself and not having strong direction or money to invest in myself, not having a good network of supportive people around me...and poor timing of life events....have all been contributing factors to me being where I am right now.

The head of the shelter said something to me about self-esteem classes. Some people don't need to take self esteem classes- they just have it.

I woke up at 3:00 AM and just laid there for a while trying to readjust my clothes, I just sleep in my pants. I wasn't comfortable....then I finally went back to sleep. The room smells like dirty socks or something.

I'm wondering if I can cut every single one of my relatives out of my life sometime in the future- I’m thinking about moving away and putting some physical distance between me and my mother when I get some resources together. I should really have other long term goals beyond cutting people out of my life.  

There is a big cross in the homeless shelter and I'm suppose to be praying for myself or other people in there or something and at my mature adult age the only thing I am praying for is that my mother gets in a car-accident. Bad Karma? Do I care?

Open to possibilities in the vague unknown space of tomorrow or ignorant aimlessness.

Thanks, Hops!

I'm going to try.

Bones

I'm sorry about all the physical stuff, Bones.
I know it's harder to keep your chin up with all that.

Let the times between be big...enjoy this early fall air!

hugs
Hops

Me, too, GS.

In my case...I'm lazy. Paralysis is comfortable in a perverse way.

xo

Hops

I do barter, Doc G...
you promise to contemplate the joy it gives OTHERS to be allowed to give you something special you would really enjoy...(and so, you need to help them do that, by identifying a couple ideas or directions...)

(My Dad was so self-effacing he would always deny he wanted anything, and sort of deflected the joy of giving. It hurt. I remember a lot of real pain about it. I wanted so much to show him I loved him, and had spent time thinking of him. I loved him very much and the ways I could think of to show it were limited. I wanted the delight of delighting him. But giving him gifts was excruciating because he was so uncomfortable "wanting".)

And if you do that...I'll keep on spouting freebie opinions now and then.

Boy, I get the easy part. 

Hops

Hi all, sorry I'm still being pretty useless here.

I'm going through the last rounds of "negotiation" with my brother on personal property. I've given up nearly everything and he's debating individual pieces. I gave up my grandmother's tea set -- kind of set me off. Now he's likely coming in 1 week with a truck. Last straw was his lawyer saying he wants to bring his new DIL also, to "see the house that's meant so much to the family." What family? The one he's destroyed?

My last communication from my D, other than one about a PO box, was her writing: "Frankly, the less I see or hear from you the better."

I take that as instructions from the universe and have no desire to contact her.

Been crying pretty often. A lot is about losing my home (and family and daughter) in the same couple years.

But it will end soon and I do believe that next chapter will come. I mostly have perspective, it's just wobbly at times.

Sending love and good thoughts to each of you in your journeys too--there are tough times and tough transitions far more acute than mine. I'm reading and caring.

love
Hops

And so we're back to definition of terms, I think. (As in the article about classifying grief as depression in the DSM).

I don't know that even our group here has a concise definition of NPD; the list of traits at the end of the article do help. Our understanding of NPD is like the understanding of the definition of pornography: we know it when we see it. Yet, the range of severity or inherent-ness of symptoms in people we could identify as NPD is immense. And I agree, that often (but not as a prerequisite) NPD is co-morbid with other definable disorders. Like mud, I don't think "individualism" has a thing to do with it... and the example of Facebook, Twitter, etc would seem to more support people flirting with an N-attitude (Look at me! I'm having spaghetti for dinner!) than the opposite. Yes, social networking does lend itself to a form of community - so does VESMB. It's just a tool that can be used to reach an end; it doesn't predict what that end is, however.

I have a strange idea and maybe it won't make a lick o' sense. But, I wonder if the only way to effectively treat NPD is to treat the people who are vulnerable to being taken in by it?? The idea comes to me, via the AHA moment that seems so common once we've seen that the "great Oz" is just a sad little man behind the curtain. Once "exposed" like this, very quickly the great Oz loses the power of illusion over others.

Once we understand that a.) there are people that we are supposed to be able to trust - but can't and that b.) people can and do present themselves falsely and deny all evidence that exposes the lie - then we are finally able to stop blaming ourselves and feeling "at fault" in the relationship; we are able to begin to actually protect ourselves with healthy methods... and not simply try to appease the N for the bestowal of illusory "grace" on our needs.

It's also confusing when there are "healthy N" traits and no real idea where healthy starts to take a turn for the worse. I just about choked & dropped Cozolino's book on neuro-psych in the chapter where he describes someone who could easily be one of us on the board. He stuck the narcissist label onto someone in a case history, who developed obsessive caretaking traits... to maintain a role of importance in his relationship with neglectful and N parents. And of course, he repeated this throughout his life's relationships, until he finally "saw" what he was doing. I could easily have been described a "pathological caretaker"; parentification is a survival strategy; but does that make me N?

I re-read that several times, to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding him. I was sorta outraged that he seemed to be "blaming the victim" by classifying the client as N, in that case. And I've been pondering this for a couple of months... trying to see where I wasn't "getting it". And I believe that it's this fuzzy gray area of healthyN/NPD traits that's losing me. Growing up with N... I believe we try so hard to "not be like that" and believe that "all N is bad" (based on firsthand experience)... that we go through our own ego-struggles with where that line of healthy/unhealthy N is... often rejecting what is considered healthy N and even denying our own attempts for ego-survival - for fear of becoming the monster we've been afraid of so long. (And I know that's kinda hard to follow - sorry! It's just as confusing to be in that kind of loop.)

So, I wonder if we need to toss out Freud's "narcissist" definition and coin two new terms to distinguish between what is healthy ego defense or survival - healthy N - and the other kind? I think we could all agree that there is big difference between someone who indulges their ego with status symbol kinds of things or insists on being the height of fashion - and the type of truly sick person who can only feel good at the expense of others' well-being.

Well, perhaps when one has a lot of needs that aren't being met one automatically is less empathetic; less charitable... because it's a survival mechanism. (I guess it's a viewpoint that could explain some current social trends, too.) The meaning of this, is that humans are built to take care of themselves first - and when those basic needs are met, then they reach out to others. And it's most likely a temporary condition; I don't believe you're an inherently judgemental, mean person at all. One just doesn't have anything to give when one needs so many things, you know?

Another way to look at this, is from the FOO-environment: Nm & brother sure 'nuff took care of their needs... ignoring the kids care, didn't they? Your brother with his kids... Nmom with your needs. This builds up a lot of survival defenses in a person; I know I still struggle with resentment & wanting to blame someone... because I often don't know what I need; I don't ask for it (and sure don't have any confidence that asking results in getting); and then I'm angry and resentful... because I feel like I'm bustin' my butt and no one else is helping. At least, that's my self-fulfilling prophecy cycle, you know? I've seen it over and over and even when the steam is coming out of my ears and I'm on the verge of kickin' proverbial a$$... I still know this is exactly what it is... and what I really NEED has to come from ME, in this situation: I have to ask specifically for what I want/need - and then release the outcome... I can't put any conditions whatsoever on how, when, or even IF my request is fulfilled. And I have to keep asking....

... in your situation, I hear very loud & clear that you really don't want to be accepted and part of the shelter environment. Understandable, I think. But it also sorta reminds me of a present-day experience that could help resolve the old FOO scripts and dramas, too. You are NOT your FOO... and it's understandable that you don't want to be "accepted" (under their terms) and "belong" (in that situation). So it's symbolic in a way: the quest to get out of the shelter [might] = the quest to separate "you" (in your feelings and thoughts about yourself) from you FOO. Possible? I sure don't know... so you'll have to just chuck this if it doesn't fit.

I don't know why this other thing keeps coming up and it seems irrelevant and silly to me; but it's something that wants to be passed on to you and it's persisting... it's an old Zen saying about how the goal of zazen is:

to be at home in the homeless home

 

''She has really damaged my life, but I keep on keepin' on.  I keep trying.  I keep fiighting it.  it's a struggle, but I keep going.''

English, this is great advice. Thanks so much for sharing...